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What did the placebo arm of SURMOUNT-1 report for vomiting?

Asked 5 Sept 2025Modified 9 months agoViewed 11k times
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Concretely: SURMOUNT-1 · vomiting.

The figures are clear enough; the question is what they mean and what they do not.

I can supply the numbers if the specifics change the answer.

What would I need in addition before this supported a decision?

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MI
askedmicron2236k1385 Sept 2025

3 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
84

Accepted answer

On the detail: the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

Concretely, apoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

FLOW tested a composite renal endpoint — kidney failure, sustained 50 per cent eGFR decline, or renal or cardiovascular death — in type 2 diabetes with chronic kidney disease, and was stopped early for efficacy[1].

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

edited 30 Oct 2025 by Dr_Sara_Kuusela — added the placebo-arm figures

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DK
answered · acceptedDr_Sara_Kuusela46k3814 Oct 2025
Worth adding that the method section is where the answer usually is. – Dr_Tomas_Kral 5 months ago
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36

Specifically, this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

In practice, liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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JW
answeredj_wierzbicki45k3811 Sept 2025
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In practice, read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

It helps to be literal here: a fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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DA
answeredDr_Yusuf_Adeyemi95k2483 Oct 2025

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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