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Should I use a different needle to draw than to inject?

Asked 15 Jul 2024Modified 22 months agoViewed 27k times
17

This is the third vial from the same lot, so I can compare against two known-good ones.

I have read the obvious sources and they disagree with each other, so I would rather ask people who have actually done this.

I have a working setup and a notebook, and I am prepared to be told that my setup is inadequate if that is the answer.

So: what is the actual procedure, and which steps matter as opposed to being ritual?

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NK
askednils_karlberg13k1715 Jul 2024
7The placebo-arm figure is the part everyone omits. – e_dziedzic 2 months ago
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5 Answers

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85

The underlying point is that work in the order concentration, then volume, then units, and the arithmetic stops being confusing. Concentration is milligrams per millilitre and comes from the vial contents and the diluent volume. Volume per dose is dose divided by concentration. Units on a U-100 syringe are volume in millilitres multiplied by one hundred.

Rotation of injection site is a tolerability measure, not a pharmacokinetic one, but if you are going to do it you might as well do it right.

Dead space by syringe type

ConfigurationDead volumeLoss at 5 mg/mLOver 20 draws
Fixed-needle insulin syringe3–5 µL15–25 µg0.3–0.5 mg
Low-dead-space, detachable<2 µL<10 µg<0.2 mg
Standard luer-lock + 30G35–60 µL175–300 µg3.5–6 mg
Luer-lock + 21G drawing needle70–100 µL350–500 µg7–10 mg

Number of stopper piercings matters less than the gauge doing the piercing. A 30G or 31G needle through a butyl stopper leaves a track that reseals; a 21G or 18G drawing needle punches a core and can drop it into the solution.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

edited 12 Oct 2024 by vialroom — reworded for clarity after a comment

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VI
answeredvialroom87k14818 Sept 2024
7The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – pk_curve 9 months ago
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58

Two people working through the same arithmetic independently should get the same answer, and if they do not, someone has made a unit error.

Worked example, because the general form is easier to trust once you have seen it once. Take a 10 mg vial and add 2 mL of diluent: the concentration is 10 ÷ 2 = 5 mg/mL. A 0.5 mg dose is 0.5 ÷ 5 = 0.1 mL. On a U-100 syringe, where 1 unit = 0.01 mL, that is 0.1 ÷ 0.01 = 10 units. Change the diluent to 1 mL and the same dose becomes 5 units — same dose, half the resolution.

Worth being precise here: do not use the same needle to pierce the stopper and to administer. The tip is blunted by the stopper, and the hub now contains a dose you are about to lose to dead space anyway.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

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DH
answeredDr_Wren_Halliday40k387 Sept 2024
This is the first explanation of that which has actually made sense to me. – nine_point_nine 5 months ago
Note that the label instructions differ between agents on precisely this point. – e_dziedzic 6 months ago
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41

Concretely, the distinction that resolves most of these questions is understanding what concentration actually means and why it is not the same as label claim.

The concentration you actually work with is label claim times content fraction divided by actual diluent volume, which is usually not the same as the nominal concentration because content is usually not 100 per cent and you rarely measure the diluent volume to 0.1 mL precision.

On filtration: a 0.22 µm syringe filter will remove particulates and organisms, and it will also adsorb a fraction of your peptide onto the membrane — with a low-binding PVDF or PES membrane the loss is typically a few per cent.

The insulin-unit standard U-100 means 100 units per millilitre, so one unit is 0.01 mL — this is the conversion that trips up more people here than any other single piece of arithmetic.

I would flag the obvious failure mode: people get the concentration right, get the volume right, and then read the syringe against the wrong scale.

If in doubt, use more diluent and accept the shorter usable window.

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KS
answeredk_szabo45k3827 Aug 2024
The timing signature is the useful part. Everything else is confounded. – tess_amankwah 4 months ago
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34

More usefully, this is one of those calculations where checking your work takes two minutes and prevents a very consequential error.

Dead space quantified: a fixed-needle insulin syringe holds roughly 3 to 5 µL in the hub and needle after the plunger bottoms out. A luer-lock syringe with a detachable needle holds 35 to 100 µL depending on the hub design. At 5 mg/mL that is 15 to 25 µg lost per draw on the insulin syringe and 175 to 500 µg on the luer-lock — which over ten draws is the difference between losing a rounding error and losing half a milligram.

The Arrhenius relationship for drawing kinetics means that cold solution takes noticeably longer to draw than room-temperature solution.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

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TM
answeredtwo_two_micron15k1715 Aug 2024
31

Concretely, rounding to the nearest whole syringe unit is usually the right error to make, but understanding which direction it is and why matters.

Breaking it down further: if a 10 mg vial has 96.5 per cent content, you have 9.65 mg of peptide. Divide that by 2.00 mL and your concentration is 4.825 mg/mL, not 5.00 mg/mL, which is a 3.5 per cent systematic error in every dose calculation.

The content assay results from major testing services show that nominal vial claim and measured content differ by one to ten per cent, making content a driver of dose error.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

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NO
answerednkem_obiora46k384 Aug 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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