PeptideStack
5.2kquestions
20kanswers
220users

Is SURMOUNT-OSA a fair comparison of orforglipron against its comparator arm?

Asked 22 May 2024Modified 22 months agoViewed 17k times
35

What I have: SURMOUNT-OSA · orforglipron.

I would rather be corrected now than propagate something wrong.

I am specifically not interested in a testimonial; I am interested in a measurement.

What would count as evidence here, and does it exist?

clinical-trials
clinical-trials

Reading the primary literature properly: estimands, intention-to-treat versus per-protocol, confidence intervals, absolute versus relative…

913 questions
semaglutide
semaglutide

A GLP-1 receptor agonist with a fatty-acid-acylated backbone and a roughly one-week half-life, marketed for type 2 diabetes and for weight…

360 questions
tirzepatide
tirzepatide

A dual GIP and GLP-1 receptor agonist. Questions here cover the SURPASS and SURMOUNT programmes, the practical differences from a pure GLP-1…

162 questions
shareeditfollowflag
BC
askedbea_castellanos47k13822 May 2024

2 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
87

Accepted answer

Specifically, read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

Creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

The relevant detail is that hbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

Worth being explicit that this is interpretation of published data and not medical advice. Laboratory results belong in a conversation with whoever ordered them.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

edited 28 Sept 2024 by ines_brandt — expanded the table to cover the lower concentration

shareimprove this answerflag
IB
answered · acceptedines_brandt93k24830 Aug 2024
Sponsored

Sigma-Aldrich - Certified Reference Materials

Analytical standards and reagents with traceable certificates. Every quantitative result you read inherits the accuracy of the standard behind it.

Shop standards
75

In practice, start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

shareimprove this answerflag
JE
answeredjonas_ekstrom18k2810 Sept 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.