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How many weeks to steady state for survodutide on a weekly schedule?

Asked 24 Oct 2024Modified 18 months agoViewed 30k times
20

This matters because it predicts what a related molecule should do.

Please show the division. I want to check my own against yours.

I would like the general form as well as the specific number, so I can apply it again.

How many significant figures are actually justified here?

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AN
askedamara_nwachukwu41k3824 Oct 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
81

Accepted answer

Dose equivalence across agents with different receptor profiles is not a defensible concept, and the attempt to construct it is the most common analytical error in this area.

Tirzepatide is an imbalanced dual agonist: it is more potent at the GIP receptor than at the GLP-1 receptor, which is the opposite of what most people assume from the way it is described. Whether the GIP contribution works through central appetite pathways, through adipose insulin sensitisation, or through modulating the GLP-1 signal is genuinely unsettled, and the honest position is that the clinical result is clear and the attribution is not.

Reconciling gross mass to label claim

ComponentTypical shareCounted in purity?Counted in content?
Target peptide88–94 %Yes, as main peakYes
Related impurities1–3 %Yes, as other peaksNo
Counter-ion (TFA or acetate)2–8 %NoNo
Residual water2–6 %NoNo
Bulking agent, if present0–40 %NoNo

Worth being precise here: what the glucagon arm of a tri-agonist adds is energy expenditure and hepatic fat mobilisation; what it costs is glycaemic control and an increase in heart rate. That is why the tri-agonists show a steeper weight-loss curve and why their development requires more care around cardiac and glycaemic endpoints than a pure GLP-1 agonist does.

Tirzepatide’s imbalanced receptor pharmacology, with greater potency at GIPR than at GLP-1R, is characterised in its pharmacology publication and is the starting point for any mechanistic discussion of the agent[1].

Do not convert doses between agents. There is no exchange rate, and constructing one is how people arrive at an order-of-magnitude error.

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LC
answered · acceptedlyoph_cake95k25825 Dec 2024
3For what it is worth, my own result was within half a per cent of this. – carys_meredith 8 months ago
2Any reason this would differ for a longer peptide? – Dr_Colm_Fitzhenry 7 months ago
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96

Concretely, the half-life is a formulation achievement rather than an intrinsic property. Native GLP-1 has a plasma half-life of a couple of minutes; everything in this class is a set of modifications engineered to defeat that.

Oral bioavailability of a 4 kDa peptide is essentially zero without help. Oral semaglutide is co-formulated with sodium N-(8-[2-hydroxybenzoyl]amino)caprylate, which raises local gastric pH and transiently increases transcellular permeability in a small area of gastric mucosa. It works, and it delivers roughly one per cent of the dose, which is why the oral tablet strengths are an order of magnitude above the injectable and why fasting and water volume are not optional details.

Receptor desensitisation as a plateau mechanism is plausible and poorly evidenced. GLP-1R internalises on agonist binding and recycles, and biased agonists that internalise less have been argued to sustain signalling better. Whether any of that operates at the timescale of a four-month clinical plateau — against the much simpler explanation that energy expenditure fell with mass — is not established.

The structural basis of semaglutide’s pharmacokinetics — Aib-8, the Arg34Lys substitution and the C18 diacid–AEEA linker at Lys26 — is described in the original medicinal chemistry publication, and it is worth reading once because it makes the design logic explicit[1].

The limitation here is that almost all of the human mechanistic work is in the licensed agents, so mechanistic claims about the investigational tri-agonists rest on animal and early-phase data.

The chemistry is the interesting part and it is also the well-documented part. Read the medicinal chemistry papers; they are short and they explain the design.

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MV
answeredmala_venkatesh21k2816 Jan 2025
63

On the detail: two structural interventions do the work: substitution at the DPP-4 cleavage site to stop enzymatic degradation, and a fatty-acid chain to bind serum albumin and create a slowly released reservoir. Remove either and you are back to a compound requiring continuous infusion.

Orforglipron is not a peptide at all, which changes everything downstream: it is orally bioavailable without an absorption enhancer, it has no fasting or water requirement of the same kind, it does not require cold chain, and it cannot be assayed by any of the peptide methods discussed elsewhere on this site.

Concretely, the Aib substitution at position 8 replaces alanine with α-aminoisobutyric acid, which is sterically hindered enough that dipeptidyl peptidase-4 cannot cleave the N-terminal dipeptide. That single change takes the half-life from minutes to hours. The C18 diacid on a linker at Lys26 then binds albumin reversibly, which both shields the molecule from renal filtration and creates a depot that releases slowly — taking hours to about a week.

The role of the area postrema and the hypothalamic arcuate nucleus in GLP-1-mediated appetite suppression is supported by both the neuroanatomy of receptor expression and by the effect of lesioning studies in animal models.

Worth noting that receptor pharmacology measured in a transfected cell line is a starting point, not a physiological measurement, and potency ratios do not transfer cleanly in vivo.

The mechanism is settled enough to be useful and unsettled enough to be interesting, which is a reasonable place for a field to be.

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RS
answeredrota_site55k3827 Jan 2025
37

It helps to be literal here: the mechanism question has a clean answer for the peripheral effects and a much less clean answer for the central ones, and it is worth being explicit about which of those you are asking about.

Comparing a 2.4 mg dose of one agonist to a 15 mg dose of another tells you nothing, because the molar potencies at their respective receptors differ, the receptor profiles differ, and the exposure per milligram differs. The only defensible comparison is between clinical outcomes in trials with comparable populations and durations, which is why SURMOUNT-5 exists and why indirect comparisons should be read sceptically.

Oral semaglutide’s absorption mechanism via SNAC is described in the pharmacokinetic literature, and the ~1 per cent bioavailability figure with high inter- and intra-individual variability is why administration conditions are specified so tightly[1].

I would separate what is established structurally from what is inferred clinically. The chemistry is settled; the attribution of clinical effect to specific receptor arms mostly is not.

Structure predicts pharmacokinetics reliably and clinical effect unreliably. Keep the two claims separate.

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SN
answeredsyringe_ninety15k285 Jan 2025
8Any reason this would differ for a longer peptide? – Dr_Nadia_Farsi 3 months ago
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31

On the detail: start from the receptor and the rest follows: which receptors, in what ratio, with what signalling bias, reached at what concentration.

Amylin co-agonism adds to a GLP-1 effect rather than duplicating it because the two act through different circuits: amylin signals through the area postrema via calcitonin receptor complexes, GLP-1 through both the area postrema and the arcuate nucleus. Two non-redundant satiety signals summate, which is the design rationale for a co-formulation rather than a higher dose of either.

Retatrutide’s Phase 2 dose-ranging results reported dose-dependent weight reduction with a tri-agonist across a range of doses, and the magnitude at the top dose is what motivated the Phase 3 TRIUMPH programme[1].

The caveat is that mechanism explains and does not predict. A clean mechanistic story has repeatedly failed to survive a Phase 3 in metabolic medicine.

If you want to reason about a new agent, start from its receptor profile and its half-life. Almost everything else follows.

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DR
answeredDr_Priya_Raghunathan94k2482 Nov 2024
3Have you seen anything published on this, or is it inference from the mechanism? – second_lot 5 months ago
2Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – Dr_Colm_Fitzhenry 3 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.