PeptideStack
5.2kquestions
20kanswers
220users

What interval makes sense for repeating AST on survodutide?

Asked 5 Jun 2024Modified 23 months agoViewed 17k times
14

The particulars: AST · survodutide.

I am at the decision point and I would rather think it through than improvise.

I would rather spend money on measurement than on redundancy.

What is the minimum version of this that is still defensible?

bloodwork
bloodwork

Laboratory monitoring: which panels are worth ordering, sensible intervals, reference-range versus optimal-range arguments, and how to read a…

284 questions
harm-reduction
harm-reduction

Reducing avoidable risk where a decision has already been made: independent verification before use, sterility practice, dose arithmetic checked…

445 questions
a1c
a1c

Glycated haemoglobin as a ninety-day glycaemic average: what a change of half a point means, why it lags, and the conditions under which it…

108 questions
shareeditfollowflag
AM
askedaine_mulcahy35k385 Jun 2024

2 Answers

Sorted by votes
52

Put another way, start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

Relative to absolute, worked

QuantityValueDerivation
Control-arm event rate8.0 %From the trial table, not the abstract
Hazard ratio0.80Reported
Treated event rate6.4 %8.0 × 0.80
Absolute risk reduction1.6 pp8.0 − 6.4
Number needed to treat631 ÷ 0.016
Relative risk reduction20 %1 − 0.80

The last two rows describe the same finding. Only one of them is used in headlines.

The part that matters: the early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

STEP 1 reported a mean weight change of approximately −14.9 per cent with semaglutide 2.4 mg versus −2.4 per cent with placebo at 68 weeks[1]; the difference between the figures quoted from this trial in different places is an estimand difference.

The caveat is the population. Trial participants were screened, monitored and supported; the effect size in an unmonitored setting is not the trial effect size, and it is not obvious in which direction the difference runs.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

shareimprove this answerflag
KA
answeredkwn_analytical89k24826 Aug 2024
The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – m_haraldsen 4 months ago
add a comment
Sponsored

Sigma-Aldrich - Certified Reference Materials

Analytical standards and reagents with traceable certificates. Every quantitative result you read inherits the accuracy of the standard behind it.

Shop standards
36

Stated carefully, a single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

The PIONEER programme established oral semaglutide’s efficacy and the constraints on its administration, and the bioavailability figure of roughly one per cent is what drives the fasting and water-volume requirements[1].

The limitation is that surrogate endpoints and hard endpoints have come apart before in metabolic medicine, so a favourable biomarker is a reason for optimism rather than a conclusion.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

shareimprove this answerflag
SB
answereds_bhattacharya42k3815 Aug 2024
This is the first explanation of that which has actually made sense to me. – forty_units 12 days ago
Note that the label instructions differ between agents on precisely this point. – ines_brandt 9 months ago
add a comment

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.