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Is STEP 3 a fair comparison of tirzepatide against its comparator arm?

Asked 2 Sept 2024Modified 19 months agoViewed 35k times
25

Concretely: STEP 3 · tirzepatide.

I want to know whether there is evidence behind this or only repetition.

I have checked the obvious registries and monographs without success.

Is there data behind this, or is it received wisdom?

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JF
askedjuliette_farnese12k282 Sept 2024
8Confirming from the other direction: I did the wrong thing and got exactly the predicted outcome. – nkem_obiora 2 months ago
Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – gradient_slope 4 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
-1

Accepted answer

Stated carefully, the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

Specifically, apoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

SURMOUNT-1 reported mean weight reductions of approximately 15, 19 and 21 per cent at tirzepatide 5, 10 and 15 mg respectively at 72 weeks[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

edited 21 Dec 2024 by gel_pack_warm — added the method parameters

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GW
answered · acceptedgel_pack_warm13k1812 Dec 2024
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6

This is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

In practice, a network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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TA
answeredtess_amankwah48k3829 Oct 2024
6

Stated carefully, start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

Specifically, a fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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TQ
answeredtriple_agonist_q37k3823 Dec 2024
3

The confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

The PIONEER programme established oral semaglutide’s efficacy and the constraints on its administration, and the bioavailability figure of roughly one per cent is what drives the fasting and water-volume requirements[1].

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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DV
answeredDr_Bram_Verhoeven85k24820 Nov 2024
4This matches what I was told by a laboratory, for whatever that is worth. – kirsi_lahtinen 9 months ago
3Minor: the trial name is hyphenated in the original publication. – tri_gly_ala 7 months ago
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2

Read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

SURMOUNT-OSA reported reductions in the apnoea-hypopnoea index with tirzepatide in adults with obesity and moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnoea, both with and without concurrent positive airway pressure therapy[1].

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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TF
answeredtwo_point_four14k271 Dec 2024
8Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – Dr_Malik_Osei 9 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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