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Is 8 mg/mL a sensible working concentration for survodutide, or should I go lower?

Asked 24 Aug 2024Modified 21 months agoViewed 44k times
30

The particulars: 8 mg/mL · survodutide.

I am trying to choose between two options that are usually discussed as though only one exists.

I am not optimising for price, but I am not indifferent to it either.

Which axes does this decision turn on?

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JE
askedjonas_ekstrom18k2824 Aug 2024
5Good answer, but the confidence interval in the cited trial is wider than implied. – plate_count_9k 9 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
99

Accepted answer

Worth being precise here: write the units at every step, because units errors are the failure mode that catches everyone eventually.

The concentration you actually work with is label claim times content fraction divided by actual diluent volume, which is usually not the same as the nominal concentration because content is usually not 100 per cent and you rarely measure the diluent volume to 0.1 mL precision.

Number of stopper piercings matters less than the gauge doing the piercing. A 30G or 31G needle through a butyl stopper leaves a track that reseals; a 21G or 18G drawing needle punches a core and can drop it into the solution.

The insulin-unit standard U-100 means 100 units per millilitre, so one unit is 0.01 mL — this is the conversion that trips up more people here than any other single piece of arithmetic.

The caveat is that this assumes the vial contains what the label says, and if the content assay has not been done, the arithmetic is precise about an unknown quantity.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

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DB
answered · acceptedDr_Ingrid_Baumgartner39k382 Nov 2024
Do you have a reference for the last claim? Not disputing it, just want to read it. – Dr_Marek_Zielinski 5 months ago
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40

To be exact about it, this is one of those calculations where checking your work takes two minutes and prevents a very consequential error.

Air bubbles at these volumes are a measurement problem rather than a safety one. A 2 mm bubble in a 0.3 mL syringe is roughly 4 µL, which at 10 units drawn is a four per cent error.

Concretely, do not use the same needle to pierce the stopper and to administer. The tip is blunted by the stopper, and the hub now contains a dose you are about to lose to dead space anyway.

The Arrhenius relationship for drawing kinetics means that cold solution takes noticeably longer to draw than room-temperature solution.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

edited 7 Nov 2024 by Dr_Rosalind_Achebe — added a caveat about sampling

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DA
answeredDr_Rosalind_Achebe90k15822 Oct 2024
7This is the first explanation of that which has actually made sense to me. – Dr_Nadia_Farsi 22 days ago
6Note that the label instructions differ between agents on precisely this point. – low_dead_space 9 months ago
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28

Mechanically, work in the order concentration, then volume, then units, and the arithmetic stops being confusing. Concentration is milligrams per millilitre and comes from the vial contents and the diluent volume. Volume per dose is dose divided by concentration. Units on a U-100 syringe are volume in millilitres multiplied by one hundred.

Worked example, because the general form is easier to trust once you have seen it once. Take a 10 mg vial and add 2 mL of diluent: the concentration is 10 ÷ 2 = 5 mg/mL. A 0.5 mg dose is 0.5 ÷ 5 = 0.1 mL. On a U-100 syringe, where 1 unit = 0.01 mL, that is 0.1 ÷ 0.01 = 10 units. Change the diluent to 1 mL and the same dose becomes 5 units — same dose, half the resolution.

On the detail: dead space quantified: a fixed-needle insulin syringe holds roughly 3 to 5 µL in the hub and needle after the plunger bottoms out. A luer-lock syringe with a detachable needle holds 35 to 100 µL depending on the hub design. At 5 mg/mL that is 15 to 25 µg lost per draw on the insulin syringe and 175 to 500 µg on the luer-lock — which over ten draws is the difference between losing a rounding error and losing half a milligram.

Worth noting: the concentration after reconstitution is not the same as the label claim, and most people do not account for the difference.

If in doubt, use more diluent and accept the shorter usable window.

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MO
answeredmarta_okonkwo87k25811 Oct 2024
23

The single most useful thing to do is write the arithmetic on the vial label, because you will reconstruct it from memory at an inconvenient moment if you do not.

The rounding error accumulates if you round too many times — rounding concentration to 5.0, rounding the dose volume to 0.1 mL, rounding the unit reading to 10 — and the safest approach is to work the full precision and round only the final answer.

The content assay results from major testing services show that nominal vial claim and measured content differ by one to ten per cent, making content a driver of dose error.

I would flag the obvious failure mode: people get the concentration right, get the volume right, and then read the syringe against the wrong scale.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

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DZ
answeredDr_Marek_Zielinski39k3830 Sept 2024
22

The arithmetic only stops being confusing once you work it through once and see that it is straightforward.

Room temperature before drawing is worth the ten minutes. Cold solution is more viscous, draws slower, and condensation on a cold barrel makes it harder to read the meniscus.

The limitation is that technique reduces risk, it does not remove it, and nothing you can do outside a controlled environment makes a non-sterile preparation sterile.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

edited 9 Oct 2024 by tobias_maartens — added the placebo-arm figures

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TM
answeredtobias_maartens94k25819 Sept 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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