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Why did my GGT move after four weeks on dulaglutide?

Asked 16 Jul 2024Modified 21 months agoViewed 31k times
29

Concretely: GGT · four weeks · dulaglutide.

I think I have a problem. I am not yet sure whether it is a real problem or a measurement artefact.

I want to know whether this is recoverable or whether the honest answer is to write it off.

How do I distinguish the benign explanation from the one that matters?

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Lipid response on treatment: triglycerides, LDL-C, non-HDL-C, ApoB and Lp(a), which of them move with weight loss, and why a fasting panel drawn…

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askedoona_kekkonen16k1816 Jul 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
28

Accepted answer

The relevant detail is that start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

Worth being precise here: hbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

SURMOUNT-1 reported mean weight reductions of approximately 15, 19 and 21 per cent at tirzepatide 5, 10 and 15 mg respectively at 72 weeks[1].

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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LF
answered · acceptedleah_ferrers15k2721 Sept 2024
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33

Specifically, the confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

The part that matters: a network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

edited 10 Nov 2024 by w_okoye — added the method parameters

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WO
answeredw_okoye40k13813 Oct 2024
7I would add a sentence about sterility here, since it is the thing people skip. – tare_and_weigh 6 months ago
6The placebo-arm figure is the part everyone omits. – Dr_Hanne_Solberg 4 months ago
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21

In practice, the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

A fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

Mechanically, apoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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LC
answeredlyoph_cake95k25824 Oct 2024
Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – tyndall_haze 7 months ago
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14

A single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

SURMOUNT-4 randomised participants after an open-label lead-in to continued tirzepatide or placebo, and the withdrawal arm regained a substantial proportion of the lost weight over the following year[1].

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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DA
answeredDr_Yusuf_Adeyemi95k24830 Aug 2024
Thank you — the worked example is what makes this usable. – ines_brandt 2 months ago
Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – charge_state_3 10 days ago
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11

This is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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BU
answeredbufferline4249k1382 Oct 2024
6Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – bac_or_bust 8 hours ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.