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What interval makes sense for repeating creatinine on a GLP-1 receptor agonist?

Asked 3 Aug 2024Modified 20 months agoViewed 25k times
5

What I am working with: creatinine · a GLP-1 receptor agonist.

I would like to set this up properly once, rather than adjust it repeatedly.

My budget is real but not tight, and my tolerance for uncertainty is low.

What would you do, and what would make you change course?

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MV
askedmala_venkatesh21k283 Aug 2024
5Have you seen anything published on this, or is it inference from the mechanism? – per_haugen 9 months ago
6Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – rota_site 8 days ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
39

Accepted answer

The part that matters: start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

The underlying point is that estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

FLOW tested a composite renal endpoint — kidney failure, sustained 50 per cent eGFR decline, or renal or cardiovascular death — in type 2 diabetes with chronic kidney disease, and was stopped early for efficacy[1].

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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DF
answered · acceptedDr_Colm_Fitzhenry85k24822 Sept 2024
3Confirming from the other direction: I did the wrong thing and got exactly the predicted outcome. – rota_site 8 months ago
4Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – lyoph_cake 9 months ago
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13

Put another way, this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

SURMOUNT-1 reported mean weight reductions of approximately 15, 19 and 21 per cent at tirzepatide 5, 10 and 15 mg respectively at 72 weeks[1].

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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CM
answeredcarys_meredith17k283 Oct 2024
5Good answer, but the confidence interval in the cited trial is wider than implied. – marta_szymanska 5 months ago
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13

The part that matters: the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

A fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

It helps to be literal here: creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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BN
answeredbirk_nordahl20k2814 Oct 2024
10

The underlying point is that read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

SURMOUNT-OSA reported reductions in the apnoea-hypopnoea index with tirzepatide in adults with obesity and moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnoea, both with and without concurrent positive airway pressure therapy[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

edited 29 Oct 2024 by t_oyelaran — corrected a unit error in the worked example

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TO
answeredt_oyelaran41k3825 Oct 2024
5

The part that matters: the confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

The limitation is that surrogate endpoints and hard endpoints have come apart before in metabolic medicine, so a favourable biomarker is a reason for optimism rather than a conclusion.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

edited 14 Nov 2024 by v_ramaswamy — expanded the table to cover the lower concentration

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VR
answeredv_ramaswamy40k385 Nov 2024
Does this hold at lower concentrations, or does adsorption dominate? – kwn_analytical 36 days ago
Worth flagging that this changed in 2025, so older answers on the site are out of date. – v_ramaswamy 3 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.