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What did the placebo arm of PIONEER-1 report for injection-site erythema?

Asked 19 Nov 2024Modified 17 months agoViewed 35k times
23

Stated plainly: PIONEER-1 · injection-site erythema.

I have read the primary source rather than the summary, which has left me with more questions.

I understand the headline. I do not understand the footnotes, and the footnotes look important.

How should I read this, and where are the traps?

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UM
askedunit_math13k1819 Nov 2024
6I would add a sentence about sterility here, since it is the thing people skip. – Dr_Jonas_Halvorsen 2 months ago
5The placebo-arm figure is the part everyone omits. – coring_risk 7 days ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
59

Accepted answer

Stated carefully, the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

Headline results, principal programmes

TrialAgentnDurationPrimary result
STEP 1Semaglutide 2.4 mg1,96168 wk−14.9 % vs −2.4 % weight
STEP 2Semaglutide 2.4 mg, T2DM1,21068 wk−9.6 % vs −3.4 % weight
SURMOUNT-1Tirzepatide 5/10/15 mg2,53972 wk−15 / −19 / −21 % weight
SURMOUNT-4Tirzepatide, withdrawal67088 wkContinued loss vs substantial regain
SELECTSemaglutide 2.4 mg17,604~40 moMACE HR 0.80 (0.72–0.90)
FLOWSemaglutide 1.0 mg, CKD3,533~3.4 yrRenal composite reduced; stopped early
SURMOUNT-OSATirzepatide, OSA46952 wkAHI reduced with and without PAP

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

SUSTAIN 6 was the original cardiovascular outcomes trial for semaglutide in type 2 diabetes and is the reference point for the class effect that SELECT later extended to a non-diabetic population[1].

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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DR
answered · acceptedDr_Priya_Raghunathan94k24815 Dec 2024
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22

Worth being precise here: this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

The part that matters: liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

STEP 1 reported a mean weight change of approximately −14.9 per cent with semaglutide 2.4 mg versus −2.4 per cent with placebo at 68 weeks[1]; the difference between the figures quoted from this trial in different places is an estimand difference.

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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TM
answeredthermal_mass16k2826 Dec 2024
2Worth adding that the method section is where the answer usually is. – esben_lykke 3 months ago
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19

Start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

edited 20 Jan 2025 by RP_C18 — added a caveat about sampling

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RC
answeredRP_C1885k1586 Jan 2025
3Two of us worked through this independently and arrived here, so it is at least reproducible. – Dr_Fatima_Belkacem 2 months ago
2Worth adding that the method section is where the answer usually is. – tamsin_wray 24 days ago
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15

Read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

SURMOUNT-1 reported mean weight reductions of approximately 15, 19 and 21 per cent at tirzepatide 5, 10 and 15 mg respectively at 72 weeks[1].

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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AL
answereda_lindgren46k13817 Jan 2025
2Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – sian_llewellyn 7 months ago
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14

The confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

Creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

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EH
answeredeighty_six_hours16k2728 Feb 2025
2I tested this on two lots and got the same answer, so at least it reproduces. – ines_delacruz 9 months ago
The timing signature is the useful part. Everything else is confounded. – plate_count_9k 7 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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