PeptideStack
5.2kquestions
20kanswers
220users

Is tapering better supported than stopping abruptly?

Asked 13 Jun 2024Modified 23 months agoViewed 31k times
12

I have three DEXA scans on the same scanner at twelve-week intervals, fasted, same time of day.

I would like to know whether this claim survives contact with evidence.

If the answer is "nobody has tested that", I would like that stated so I can stop looking.

What would count as evidence here, and does it exist?

discontinuation
discontinuation

Stopping treatment: tapering versus abrupt cessation, what the trial withdrawal arms measured, clinically driven stops, and the practical planning…

21 questions
maintenance-dose
maintenance-dose

Staying put: the lowest dose that holds a result, the difference between the maximum studied dose and the maximum useful dose, and what the…

44 questions
weight-regain
weight-regain

Regain after stopping or reducing: the trajectory reported in the withdrawal extensions, how much is fluid, and what the maintenance arms tell us…

14 questions
shareeditfollowflag
MS
askedmira_sundqvist19k1813 Jun 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
15

Accepted answer

Mechanically, what the data supports is narrower than what gets recommended, so it is worth separating the two.

Protein target, worked: at 88 kg, a target of 1.6 g/kg is 88 × 1.6 = 141 g per day. Spread across three eating occasions that is roughly 47 g each, and the leucine threshold for a maximal muscle protein synthetic response is met at around 2.5 to 3 g of leucine, which corresponds to roughly 30 to 40 g of a high-quality protein. So three meals at 40 g plus one 25 g snack gets you to 145 g and clears the per-meal threshold each time. On 900 kcal that leaves about 340 kcal for everything else, which is the actual constraint.

What each body-composition method measures

MethodMeasuresSensitive toLeast significant change
DEXAThree-compartment by attenuationHydration, positioning~2–3 % regional lean
BIA (consumer)Impedance, modelledHydration, food, temperatureNot usable at this timescale
Air displacementTwo-compartment by densityLung volume, hair, clothing~1–2 % fat mass
Tape and scaleCircumference, massTechniqueSurprisingly usable as a trend

The relevant detail is that the regain trajectory after stopping is roughly a mirror of the loss trajectory, and it is not primarily a willpower phenomenon. Appetite signalling returns, energy expenditure remains suppressed relative to the original mass, and the two combine. That is an argument for a maintenance plan existing before the stop, rather than an argument against stopping.

SURMOUNT-4 provides the cleanest maintenance-versus-withdrawal contrast available in the class, and it is the reference for any claim about what happens after stopping[1].

A maintenance plan written before you need it is worth more than a better loss plan.

shareimprove this answerflag
DV
answered · acceptedDr_Ilse_Vandenberg78k24819 Aug 2024
4Two of us worked through this independently and arrived here, so it is at least reproducible. – lyoph_cake 3 months ago
3Worth adding that the method section is where the answer usually is. – w_okoye 31 days ago
add a comment
Sponsored

Sigma-Aldrich - Certified Reference Materials

Analytical standards and reagents with traceable certificates. Every quantitative result you read inherits the accuracy of the standard behind it.

Shop standards
9

A plateau at four to six months is the expected shape of the curve, not a failure of it. Energy expenditure falls with mass, and the deficit closes itself unless intake falls further.

The minimum effective resistance-training dose in a deficit is lower than most programmes assume. Two sessions a week covering the major movement patterns, with loads taken close to failure, is sufficient to retain most of what would otherwise be lost. Volume beyond that adds recovery cost that a large energy deficit is poorly placed to pay.

Food noise returning is not obviously tolerance. Receptor desensitisation is one hypothesis; a second is that the initial effect was partly novelty and partly the steep early deficit, and a third is that intake has drifted upward and the signal is being outcompeted rather than weakened. The three make different predictions about what a dose increase would do.

Adaptive thermogenesis — a fall in energy expenditure beyond that predicted by the change in body composition — is documented across weight-loss interventions and is the mechanistic basis for the plateau being expected rather than anomalous.

Measure strength as well as mass. It is cheaper, it is less noisy, and it is closer to what you actually care about.

edited 4 Sept 2024 by charge_state_3 — corrected a unit error in the worked example

shareimprove this answerflag
C3
answeredcharge_state_339k4830 Aug 2024
3The placebo-arm figure is the part everyone omits. – ravi_pillai 3 months ago
add a comment
6

The distinction that resolves this is between proportional loss and functional loss. Losing lean mass in proportion to total mass is what happens in every weight loss intervention. Losing function is not, and function is measurable.

DEXA precision is better than people assume for fat mass and worse than people assume for lean mass in a single scan — the least significant change for regional lean mass on a well-maintained scanner is on the order of a few per cent. That means two scans three months apart can differ without anything having happened, and it means a scan sequence needs to be at least three points before a trend is interpretable.

In practice, cardio does not interfere with lean-mass retention at the volumes anyone here is doing; the interference effect in the literature appears at high concurrent volumes in trained athletes. What cardio does at a large deficit is add to the deficit, which is either the point or a problem depending on the objective.

The body-composition substudies in the major programmes consistently report that the proportion of weight lost as fat mass is approximately three quarters or better, with the lean-mass fraction falling within the range seen in dietary weight loss of comparable magnitude[1].

Two resistance sessions a week and a protein target you actually hit will do more than any refinement beyond them.

shareimprove this answerflag
TG
answeredtandem_gradient85k24817 Jul 2024
3

The mechanism is worth having straight, because it predicts which interventions can work and which cannot.

Hydration state moves a DEXA lean-mass figure directly, because the algorithm assigns water to the lean compartment. Scanning fasted, at the same time of day, before training and without a recent high-carbohydrate day is the difference between a comparable sequence and a noisy one. Bioelectrical impedance is far more sensitive to hydration again, which is why its trend is unusable at this timescale.

The caveat is that population averages tell you about populations. Your own trajectory is a sample of one and should be read as a trend, not as a deviation from a published mean.

The plateau is arithmetic. Treat it as arithmetic and the response follows.

shareimprove this answerflag
IB
answeredines_brandt93k24828 Jul 2024
2

Put another way, the commonly quoted figures for lean-mass loss are mostly measurement artefacts, and the artefact is well understood: fat-free mass as measured includes water and glycogen, both of which fall early and neither of which is contractile tissue.

Fibre at very low total intake is a trap. Soluble fibre needs water and motility to work; insoluble fibre adds bulk to a slow transit. At 900 kcal a day with delayed gastric emptying, an osmotic agent is more predictable than a bulking one, and adequate fluid is doing more work than either.

One qualification: none of this is a clinical assessment, and unexplained loss of function rather than of mass is a reason to see someone rather than to adjust a programme.

Train, eat the protein, measure something functional, and give the trend three months before you interpret it.

shareimprove this answerflag
SG
answeredsinead_gaffney14k288 Aug 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.