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Is a 18G drawing needle the right choice for drawing orforglipron at 5 mg/mL?

Asked 7 Jun 2024Modified 22 months agoViewed 9k times
4

Numbers first: an 18G drawing needle · orforglipron · 5 mg/mL.

I have used one of these for a while and I am considering switching, which requires a reason.

What I care about is reproducibility, because a result I cannot repeat is not useful to me.

So which one, and on what grounds?

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askedpriya_menon11k157 Jun 2024
Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – Dr_Sara_Kuusela 7 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
87

Accepted answer

This is arithmetic, so let us do the arithmetic rather than argue about it.

The concentration you actually work with is label claim times content fraction divided by actual diluent volume, which is usually not the same as the nominal concentration because content is usually not 100 per cent and you rarely measure the diluent volume to 0.1 mL precision.

The part that matters: breaking it down further: if a 10 mg vial has 96.5 per cent content, you have 9.65 mg of peptide. Divide that by 2.00 mL and your concentration is 4.825 mg/mL, not 5.00 mg/mL, which is a 3.5 per cent systematic error in every dose calculation.

The insulin-unit standard U-100 means 100 units per millilitre, so one unit is 0.01 mL — this is the conversion that trips up more people here than any other single piece of arithmetic.

Worth noting: the concentration after reconstitution is not the same as the label claim, and most people do not account for the difference.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

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ND
answered · acceptednynke_dekker18k289 Aug 2024
3I tested this on two lots and got the same answer, so at least it reproduces. – marta_okonkwo 4 months ago
2The timing signature is the useful part. Everything else is confounded. – lane_transit 2 months ago
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75

Dose arithmetic has three parts: concentration from vial content and diluent, volume from dose and concentration, and units from volume and syringe scale.

Worked example, because the general form is easier to trust once you have seen it once. Take a 10 mg vial and add 2 mL of diluent: the concentration is 10 ÷ 2 = 5 mg/mL. A 0.5 mg dose is 0.5 ÷ 5 = 0.1 mL. On a U-100 syringe, where 1 unit = 0.01 mL, that is 0.1 ÷ 0.01 = 10 units. Change the diluent to 1 mL and the same dose becomes 5 units — same dose, half the resolution.

Mechanically, room temperature before drawing is worth the ten minutes. Cold solution is more viscous, draws slower, and condensation on a cold barrel makes it harder to read the meniscus.

The limitation is that technique reduces risk, it does not remove it, and nothing you can do outside a controlled environment makes a non-sterile preparation sterile.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

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GP
answeredg_paskevicius44k3820 Aug 2024
40

Specifically, write the units at every step, because units errors are the failure mode that catches everyone eventually.

Rotation of injection site is a tolerability measure, not a pharmacokinetic one, but if you are going to do it you might as well do it right.

The relevant detail is that number of stopper piercings matters less than the gauge doing the piercing. A 30G or 31G needle through a butyl stopper leaves a track that reseals; a 21G or 18G drawing needle punches a core and can drop it into the solution.

The caveat is that this assumes the vial contains what the label says, and if the content assay has not been done, the arithmetic is precise about an unknown quantity.

If in doubt, use more diluent and accept the shorter usable window.

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JW
answeredj_wierzbicki45k3811 Sept 2024
33

The answer depends on exactly which dose and which vial you are asking about, but the method is always the same.

Air bubbles at these volumes are a measurement problem rather than a safety one. A 2 mm bubble in a 0.3 mL syringe is roughly 4 µL, which at 10 units drawn is a four per cent error.

One qualification: if your arithmetic and someone else's disagree by a factor of ten, one of you has made a unit error, and writing out the units at every step is the diagnostic.

Write the arithmetic on the vial label. It costs nothing and removes the step where you reconstruct it from memory.

edited 30 Sept 2024 by Dr_Sara_Kuusela — fixed an arithmetic slip in the third paragraph

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DK
answeredDr_Sara_Kuusela46k3831 Aug 2024
23

The arithmetic only stops being confusing once you work it through once and see that it is straightforward.

Dead space quantified: a fixed-needle insulin syringe holds roughly 3 to 5 µL in the hub and needle after the plunger bottoms out. A luer-lock syringe with a detachable needle holds 35 to 100 µL depending on the hub design. At 5 mg/mL that is 15 to 25 µg lost per draw on the insulin syringe and 175 to 500 µg on the luer-lock — which over ten draws is the difference between losing a rounding error and losing half a milligram.

Published data on syringe dead space quantifies low-dead-space designs as retaining under 2 µL against 35 µL or more for conventional detachable-needle syringes.

Do the arithmetic twice, ideally with someone else doing it independently.

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DF
answeredDr_Nadia_Farsi90k2583 Oct 2024
8The distinction between purity and content cannot be repeated often enough here. – tandem_gradient 5 months ago
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