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Does the SURPASS-2 population resemble anyone asking about tirzepatide here?

Asked 18 Oct 2024Modified 18 months agoViewed 25k times
23

Setup, so nobody has to ask: SURPASS-2 · tirzepatide.

I have read the primary source rather than the summary, which has left me with more questions.

I understand the headline. I do not understand the footnotes, and the footnotes look important.

What would I need in addition before this supported a decision?

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MH
askedm_haraldsen21k2718 Oct 2024
6Add whether the comparator was placebo or an active agent. – mateo_iglesias 9 months ago
5Voting to keep this open — it is more specific than it first looks. – coldpack_88 7 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
38

Accepted answer

Check the SURPASS-2 inclusion criteria against yourself in that order: entry BMI band, diabetes status, prior weight-loss attempts, and what the run-in excluded. Registration programmes recruit a population selected to show an effect if one exists, which is the right design and a poor basis for generalising. The run-in is the part that is easiest to miss: a programme that drops people during a placebo lead-in has already removed those least likely to tolerate or comply, and the published arms describe the survivors. External validity is not a property of the trial; it is a property of the distance between its population and yours, and that distance is yours to measure.

The trial answers a narrower question than the headline suggests, and the narrowing is where the useful information is.

Trial populations are selected. Exclusion criteria in this class routinely remove people with significant renal impairment, prior pancreatitis and unstable psychiatric illness, which is exactly the population the results are then quoted for.

Headline results, principal programmes

TrialAgentnDurationPrimary result
STEP 1Semaglutide 2.4 mg1,96168 wk−14.9 % vs −2.4 % weight
STEP 2Semaglutide 2.4 mg, T2DM1,21068 wk−9.6 % vs −3.4 % weight
SURMOUNT-1Tirzepatide 5/10/15 mg2,53972 wk−15 / −19 / −21 % weight
SURMOUNT-4Tirzepatide, withdrawal67088 wkContinued loss vs substantial regain
SELECTSemaglutide 2.4 mg17,604~40 moMACE HR 0.80 (0.72–0.90)
FLOWSemaglutide 1.0 mg, CKD3,533~3.4 yrRenal composite reduced; stopped early
SURMOUNT-OSATirzepatide, OSA46952 wkAHI reduced with and without PAP

Open-label extensions are not the same evidence as the randomised phase. Once everyone knows what they are taking, the reported outcomes acquire a bias that no analysis fully removes.

Where a result is quoted from a conference abstract rather than a peer-reviewed publication, the numbers routinely move between the two. It is worth checking which one you are reading.

One qualification: absence of a signal in a trial of this size is not evidence of absence for a rare event. It is evidence that the event is rarer than the trial could detect.

The short version: check the endpoint, check the comparator, check who was excluded, then look at the number.

edited 1 Dec 2024 by grainne_ahearn — expanded the table to cover the lower concentration

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GA
answered · acceptedgrainne_ahearn50k385 Nov 2024
8This should be linked from the help pages. – Dr_Idris_Coulibaly 2 months ago
7Do you have a reference for the last claim? Not disputing it, just want to read it. – Dr_Ilse_Vandenberg 17 days ago
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13

Before comparing two trials, check whether they share an endpoint definition. Frequently they do not, and the numbers then are not comparable in any sense.

Placebo arms in this class are not nothing. Lifestyle-intervention placebo arms in the major obesity trials commonly lose two to three per cent of body weight, so an active-arm figure quoted without its comparator overstates the drug effect by roughly that much.

On the detail: non-inferiority and superiority designs are not interchangeable. A non-inferiority result says the new agent is not meaningfully worse against a pre-specified margin — it does not say it is as good, and it certainly does not say it is better.

When two sources disagree, the answer is almost always in the methods section of the one you have not read.

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DA
answeredDr_Rosalind_Achebe69k14716 Nov 2024
12

The short version: the effect is real, the magnitude depends on the population, and the population is usually the part that gets dropped when a result is quoted second-hand.

Duration decides what can be seen. A 68-week trial can measure weight and glycaemia; it cannot measure anything whose event rate is one per cent per year without enrolling tens of thousands.

Intention-to-treat and per-protocol analyses answer different questions. ITT asks what happens if you offer the treatment; per-protocol asks what happens if it is taken as directed. The gap between the two is a measure of how tolerable the protocol was.

Meta-analyses in this area are dominated by whichever trial contributed the most participants, so read the forest plot rather than the summary estimate.

The caveat is that trial evidence is about licensed product administered under supervision. None of it transfers automatically to research-grade material of unverified content.

If a claim cannot be traced to a named trial with a named endpoint, treat it as a claim rather than as evidence.

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WC
answeredwren_calloway23k3827 Nov 2024
10

It helps to be literal here: a trial establishes what happened to a defined group under a defined protocol. Extending it beyond that group is inference, and inference is allowed as long as it is labelled.

A composite endpoint is only as informative as its least serious component. Where a cardiovascular composite combines death, infarction and stroke, ask which component moved, because they are not interchangeable outcomes.

I am not a clinician and this is not medical advice; it is a reading of a published protocol.

Read the protocol and the statistical analysis plan if the result matters to you. Both are usually published alongside.

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GA
answeredgrainne_ahearn50k3820 Jan 2025
9

Look at the discontinuation rate alongside the efficacy figure. A large effect in the two thirds who stayed is a different result from a large effect in everyone.

Confidence intervals matter more than point estimates when two trials disagree. Two studies reporting fifteen and twenty per cent whose intervals overlap heavily have not disagreed about anything.

Registry entries at ClinicalTrials.gov carry the pre-specified primary endpoint with a timestamp, which is the cheapest available check on whether an endpoint was changed after the data were seen.

Be careful about generalising from a trial population to yourself. The exclusion criteria are usually the most informative page in the supplement.

Quote the interval alongside the estimate and half the disagreements on this site would not start.

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DW
answeredDr_Elias_Weiss25k279 Dec 2024
2Adding a vote because this deserves more of them. – assay_blank 5 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.