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What does adding glucagon receptor agonism actually buy, and what does it cost you?

Asked 21 Nov 2024Modified 19 months agoViewed 13k times
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I am trying to understand the logic of putting glucagon receptor agonism into a weight-loss molecule, because on the face of it it sounds like a mistake. Glucagon raises blood glucose. It is the hormone you inject to rescue someone from hypoglycaemia. Deliberately agonising its receptor in a population that is largely insulin resistant seems like it should make glycaemic control worse, not better.

The molecules doing this are retatrutide, which adds glucagon on top of GLP-1 and GIP, and survodutide and mazdutide, which pair glucagon with GLP-1 and leave GIP out. All three report weight loss at or above what the dual GLP-1/GIP agonists achieve, so something about the reasoning must be right.

What I want to understand is the mechanistic trade in detail. What does glucagon receptor agonism contribute that GLP-1 alone does not - is it energy expenditure, is it hepatic, is it something else? What is the price, and is that price glycaemic, cardiovascular, or something less obvious? And is there a ratio question here, in the sense that the same three targets in different proportions might behave completely differently?

retatrutide
retatrutide

An investigational GLP-1, GIP and glucagon receptor tri-agonist, studied in the TRIUMPH programme. Not approved anywhere. Use this tag for…

14 questions
survodutide
survodutide

A GLP-1 and glucagon receptor dual agonist with a substantial published MASH dataset. Use this tag for its hepatic endpoints, its dose ladder, and…

14 questions
glucagon-receptor
glucagon-receptor

Glucagon receptor agonism as a deliberate component of dual and tri-agonists: what it adds in energy expenditure and hepatic fat mobilisation, and…

14 questions
clinical-trials
clinical-trials

Reading the primary literature properly: estimands, intention-to-treat versus per-protocol, confidence intervals, absolute versus relative…

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askeds_bhattacharya42k3821 Nov 2024
7The ratio point in your last paragraph is the crux - these are not "triple agonists" generically, they are specific potency ratios. – Dr_Colm_Fitzhenry 36 days ago
8Glucagon as a weight-loss target is not new; the old work on glucagon infusions and energy expenditure predates all of this. – fiadh_cronin 3 months ago
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3 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
87

Accepted answer

The trade is straightforward once you separate glucagon's hepatic glucose-output effect from its energy-expenditure and hepatic-lipid effects, and notice that GLP-1 co-agonism specifically neutralises the first one.

What glucagon receptor agonism contributes

  • Increased energy expenditure. This is the headline rationale. Glucagon raises resting energy expenditure, an effect documented in human infusion studies long before any of these molecules existed. Every GLP-1-based therapy fights the adaptive fall in energy expenditure that accompanies weight loss; glucagon agonism is an attempt to attack the other side of the energy balance equation rather than only suppressing intake.
  • Hepatic lipid mobilisation. Glucagon receptor agonism increases hepatic fatty acid oxidation and reduces hepatic steatosis, largely independently of weight change. This is why the glucagon-containing molecules have been pushed hard into metabolic liver disease rather than only obesity.
  • Possibly better preservation of the weight-loss trajectory. Speculative, but if a substantial part of the plateau is metabolic adaptation, an expenditure-side mechanism should shift where the plateau sits rather than only how fast you reach it. The phase 2 curves are consistent with this and do not prove it.

What it costs

  • Hepatic glucose output. This is the objection in your question and it is real in isolation. The resolution is that GLP-1 receptor agonism is glucose-dependently insulinotropic and glucagonostatic, and in the co-agonist the GLP-1 arm counteracts the glycaemic consequence of the glucagon arm. Empirically the triple agonist improved rather than worsened glycaemic control in type 2 diabetes [1]. So the cost is not realised as hyperglycaemia at the ratios used - but note the phrase "at the ratios used", which is your last paragraph and it is exactly right.
  • Heart rate. Dose-dependent increases in heart rate are consistently reported with the glucagon-containing agents, larger in magnitude than with GLP-1 mono-agonists. This is the most concrete price and it is the one to watch in long-term outcome trials, because a sustained heart-rate increase is not obviously benign in a cardiovascular population even when the accompanying weight loss and blood-pressure change are favourable.
  • Gastrointestinal burden. Nausea and vomiting rates in the phase 2 programmes are at least as high as the GLP-1 class, and the dose-escalation schedules are correspondingly long. Some of this is GLP-1-attributable rather than glucagon-attributable.
  • Lean mass and rate-of-loss questions. Faster and deeper weight loss raises the same questions about body composition that apply across the class, and no glucagon-containing programme has yet published the multi-year body-composition data that would answer them.

The ratio question, which is the real answer

"Triple agonist" is a class label that hides the design. Retatrutide is not an equipotent agonist at its three receptors, and neither is any other molecule here. Relative potency at GLP-1R, GIPR and GCGR is a deliberate engineering choice, and two molecules with the same three targets and different ratios are pharmacologically different drugs. A glucagon-heavy ratio buys more expenditure and more glycaemic risk; a GLP-1-heavy ratio is safer glycaemically and closer in behaviour to a mono-agonist.

Practical consequence: never generalise from one molecule to another on the basis of shared targets. Survodutide and mazdutide are both GLP-1/glucagon duals and their reported weight-loss magnitudes differ noticeably, which could be ratio, could be achievable dose, could be trial population. The published data cannot separate those, so treat each agent as its own entity.

What the evidence actually is

Retatrutide's 48-week phase 2 obesity data reported mean weight reduction around -24.2% at the highest dose, with the curve still descending at the end of the study [2]. Survodutide's 46-week phase 2 reported up to roughly -18.7% [3]. Those are phase 2 numbers in selected populations and they are the weakest kind of evidence for a magnitude claim, for reasons the other answers here go into. The phase 3 TRIUMPH programme is the test that matters for retatrutide, and until it reports in full the phase 2 dataset remains the best-powered public evidence.

edited 13 Jan 2025 by v_ramaswamy — added a caveat about sampling

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answered · acceptedv_ramaswamy40k3827 Dec 2024
3Heart rate is the endpoint I would watch hardest in the phase 3 readouts for anything with a glucagon arm. – loss_on_drying 5 months ago
4The framing that GLP-1 co-agonism is what makes the glucagon arm tolerable glycaemically is the key insight. – stopper_core 6 months ago
Agreed on treating each molecule separately - "dual agonist" tells you almost nothing without the potency ratio. – Dr_Ilse_Vandenberg 8 months ago
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The table the question implicitly asks for, with the reading caveats attached rather than in a footnote.

AgentReceptor targetsMost advanced public stageReported mean weight changeDurationComparator
Semaglutide 2.4 mgGLP-1Phase 3, approved-14.9%68 wk-2.4% placebo
Tirzepatide 15 mgGIP + GLP-1Phase 3, approved-20.9%72 wk-3.1% placebo
Retatrutide 12 mgGLP-1 + GIP + glucagonPhase 2 published; phase 3 TRIUMPH ongoing-24.2%48 wk-2.1% placebo
CagriSema 2.4/2.4 mgGLP-1 + amylin (calcitonin family)Phase 3 REDEFINE-22.7%68 wk-2.3% placebo
Survodutide 6.0 mgGLP-1 + glucagonPhase 2 published; phase 3 ongoing-18.7%46 wk-2.0% placebo
Mazdutide 6 mgGLP-1 + glucagonPhase 3 in Chinaabout -14.6%48 wkplacebo roughly flat
Ecnoglutide 2.4 mgGLP-1 (cAMP-biased)Phase 3 in Chinaabout -13.2%48 wkplacebo roughly flat
Orforglipron 36 mgGLP-1 (non-peptide, oral)Phase 3 ATTAINabout -12%72 wkplacebo roughly flat

Sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8].

How not to read this table. The rows are not comparable and the ranking they suggest is partly artefact:

  • Phase mismatch. Rows 1, 2, 4 and 8 are phase 3. Rows 3 and 5 are phase 2. Phase 2 estimates in this field have consistently come down in phase 3 by something in the region of 10 to 25% of their relative magnitude.
  • Duration mismatch. Retatrutide's -24.2% is at 48 weeks on a curve that had not flattened, while semaglutide's -14.9% is at 68 weeks on a curve close to its plateau. Comparing an unfinished curve to a finished one flatters the unfinished one on trajectory and understates it on magnitude simultaneously.
  • Population mismatch. The Chinese phase 3 programmes for mazdutide and ecnoglutide enrolled populations with substantially lower baseline weight and BMI, so equal percentages are fewer kilograms and the achievable percentage ceiling may differ.
  • Estimand mismatch. Some rows are treatment-policy figures and some are closer to efficacy or on-treatment analyses. This alone moves numbers by two to three percentage points.

The one comparison in the table that is not indirect is semaglutide against tirzepatide, because a head-to-head trial exists [9]. Everything else is cross-trial inference and should be stated with that label attached.

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answeredmarta_okonkwo87k2588 Jan 2025
4Comparing a 48-week unflattened curve with a 68-week plateaued one is the single most common error in coverage of retatrutide. – h_pergande 2 months ago
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On the GIP question, since the original post treats GIP as settled and it is the least settled thing in this field.

Tirzepatide is a GIP receptor agonist combined with GLP-1 agonism, and it works. There are also credible programmes built on GIP receptor antagonism combined with GLP-1 agonism, and the preclinical and early clinical case for those is not obviously weaker. Two opposite manipulations of the same receptor cannot both be the mechanism of benefit, so at least one of the mechanistic stories that people tell is wrong.

Candidate reconciliations, none established:

  • Functional antagonism through desensitisation. Sustained GIP receptor agonism at supraphysiological exposure may downregulate or desensitise the receptor, so a long-acting agonist could produce a net effect resembling chronic antagonism. If true, agonist and antagonist converge on the same endpoint by different routes, and the labels are misleading.
  • Tissue-specific opposite effects. GIP receptors are present in adipose tissue, pancreatic islets and specific central nuclei. Central GIP receptor agonism appears to contribute to reduced food intake and possibly to reduced nausea, while adipose GIP signalling has been argued to promote fat storage. A molecule whose distribution favours central over adipose exposure could look like a beneficial agonist while a peripherally restricted agonist looked harmful.
  • The GIP arm contributes less than assumed. Tirzepatide's superiority over semaglutide in SURMOUNT-5 could partly reflect higher achievable GLP-1 pathway exposure rather than GIP co-agonism per se. The trials as designed cannot separate these, because no arm isolates the GIP component.

What would settle it: a randomised comparison of a GLP-1/GIP agonist against a GLP-1 mono-agonist matched on GLP-1 pathway exposure, or against a GLP-1/GIP-antagonist combination. Neither exists publicly.

Until then, treat "GIP co-agonism is why tirzepatide is better" as a plausible hypothesis rather than a mechanism, and be suspicious of any explanation that makes the GIP direction sound obvious. In a field where opposite manipulations are both in clinical development, obviousness is a warning sign.

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answeredtare_and_weigh18k2821 Dec 2024

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